(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
GN[European Go Congress Board 2 round 4]PW[Kim Eunkuk]PB[Jun Sang-Youn]WR[7d]BR[7d]DT[2009-07-30]EV[European Go Congress Board 2 round 4]PC[Groningen, The Netherlands]US[Emile/ Willem]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]C[Pylon [2k\]: hello eurogotv2 can u change the rules of your cast so that SE counts ING rules or isnt that possible?
]
;B[qp]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: SE can't count iNG rules
Violence [-\]: uh... CGoban can't even count ING rules
Pylon [2k\]: ok 
]
;W[dd]
;B[oq]
;W[qj]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[qh]
;W[qm]
;B[db]C[Dogen [5k\]: are they playing with ING rules?
]
;W[cc]
;B[ic]
;W[cj]C[Violence [-\]: Yeah
Dogen [5k\]: why?
Violence [-\]: simplified ING rules
Dogen [5k\]: is that the European standard now?
Violence [-\]: Dunno, actually, ING's not a sponsor this year
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: Ing is still a sponsor this year
]
;B[fq]
;W[dn]
;B[dr]C[Highwayman [1d\]: no, i think japanese rules are standard in europe
]
;W[nc]
;B[pc]
;W[kc]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: japanese rules are used at most tournaments in Europe, but the EGC is sponsored by ING
just9x9 [-\]: whats the diffenrence between ING rules and simplified ING rules? no time buying?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I don't think there's any time buying in ing rules, but I'm no expert. Both players still have exactly 180 stones each, so there's not really a difference with the normal ing rules I think
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: They are not using an ing clock however
]
;B[ne]
;W[ke]C[fatihsulak [2d\]: finally some action 
]
;B[ld]
;W[lc]
;B[cq]
;W[cp]
;B[fo]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: just as it started, the action went away ;)
]
;W[hd]
;B[hc]
;W[fd]
;B[ec]
;W[fm]C[just9x9 [-\]: well i saw ing tournaments where the time settings included time buying, like lets say 90min sudden death and then each player could buy three more periods of 10 minutes, paying two points for each period. 
terminatrx [2d\]: nice moyo
]
;B[jp]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: there is http://senseis.xmp.net/?IngTiming but egc uses simplified ing rules. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?SimplifiedIngRules)
bolb [-\]: does the top froup play under japanese rules 
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: no
bolb [-\]: group *
bolb [-\]: why is it wrotten here ?  http://egc2009.nl/?q=node/1317
]
;W[of]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I don't know. As far as I know, they've been using ing all along. That comment is a bit old, so maybe they changed it before the congress
bolb [-\]: ok, thanks
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: at previous egcs, they have used japanese rules for top 16 though
]
;B[qf]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 2:01, b: 2:14 left
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: (the clock is on the other side now, thankfully)
]
;W[oe]
;B[pl]
;W[ql]
;B[pj]C[gdghgjd [1d\]: What happens if there are moves above 360?
jankenpon: get more s tones..
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: whenever that happened, there were mostly captured stones that could be reused
gdghgjd [1d\]: ok
fractic [1k\]: if one person has way less prisoners than the other he's usually behind anyway
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I don't know of any incident where external stones had to be added
Girls [7d\]: what is going on of the time ?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 1:52, b: 2:13
Girls [7d\]: isee
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: Eunkuk is using a lot more time
ChemBoy613 [1d\]: q9 very normal
Girls [7d\]: I want to see there clock's moving
]
;W[pk]
;B[ok]
;W[qk]
;B[pi]
;W[ol]
;B[nk]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: sudden very fast playing there
Pylon [2k\]: how old are the players?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: no idea
Pylon [2k\]: guess ^^
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: well, they still have to go serve in the korean army, so probably still teens
Pylon [2k\]: na, dont have to be teens
Pylon [2k\]: if they start to study abroad they can postpone that army service
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I think at least Jun is a teen, Kim might be a little older
Pylon [2k\]: but both of them dont live in europe right? they just came for the tournemanent i think
Reym: tengen now would be nice
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I think so, Pylon
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: In-Seong Hwang lives in Frankfurt
Pylon [2k\]: tomorrow im gonna arrive there, so i will discover for myself ^^
Pylon [2k\]: yes, in-seong and oh chimin are famous in germany
Pylon [2k\]: they win every tournament they attend ^^
erwrwer: black won
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: egc is different though, with so many other strong koreans and chinese ;)
Pylon [2k\]: yeah
Pylon [2k\]: i hoped that the european pros could beat them, but wasnt the case ^^
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: Oh Chi-Min doesn't seem to be heading towards a tournament win this time
Pylon [2k\]: yeah
Pylon [2k\]: he lost to kim
Pylon [2k\]: but still, 10 rounds is a long way ^^
]
;W[nf]
;B[om]
;W[qo]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I think this round will decide a lot, as 4 koreans are playing eachother
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: kim wanted to play around p5 at first btw
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: but took it back and played this move, sighing a bit
Pylon [2k\]: ^^
terminatrx [2d\]: lol
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I have a feeling that Jun is leading at least psychologically
Pylon [2k\]: i would have bet on kim as he won against oh chi min ^^
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: Jun just seems more confident than Kim atm
Pylon [2k\]: both quite settled from their positions
Pylon [2k\]: wont become a life and death game i guess ^^ more like reducing frameworks
]
;B[ro]
;W[pp]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white has moved
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 1:24, b: 2:07
]
;B[qn]
;W[po]
;B[rn]
;W[pn]C[Pylon [2k\]: ok, now looks like a life and death issue ^^
]
;B[pq]
;W[pm]
;B[nm]C[liger [6k\]: yeah this is really hard on white
terminatrx [2d\]: independent of living or dying i think b won now
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white is not looking happy
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: he keeps moving a stone to around o5 and taking it back
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: seems very unsure
holynec [?\]: time for the big resign!
terminatrx [2d\]: well he could live loocaly with s7 s4 s11 
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: hehe
Cassis0 [5d\]: they are both undefeated? 
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: yes
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: both 1 and 2 boards are
Cassis0 [5d\]: oh ok
]
;W[rh]
;B[rg]
;W[qi]
;B[ph]C[Kolim [1d\]: s7 s4 t12 ko?
Cassis0 [5d\]: if w had move he lives surely without condition
Cassis0 [5d\]: add* 
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 1:14, b: 2:03
]
;W[nn]
;B[np]
;W[mm]C[veteran [1d\]: another Korean move
]
;B[nl]
;W[no]
;B[lo]
;W[mp]
;B[mo]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: b doubted for a second there
Pylon [2k\]: b has alot of time let to doubt xD
Pylon [2k\]: left
Cassis0 [5d\]: seems very good for black
liger [6k\]: yeah
]
;W[qq]
;B[rp]C[veteran [1d\]: locally
]
;W[qr]
;B[pr]C[liger [6k\]: and globally
Kirigo: ???
veteran [1d\]: no
Kirigo: o3 
liger [6k\]: you don't think he has a better position on the whole board?
veteran [1d\]: globally W
liger [6k\]: no....this sequence has already damaged white's potential
Cassis0 [5d\]: w gonna globally lose the game
veteran [1d\]: W just n5 connect now
veteran [1d\]: take away eye is gote for B
veteran [1d\]: but good direction for B I admit
]
;W[mn]C[liger [6k\]: o3 ?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: what would that accomplish?
veteran [1d\]: liger, now for B ?
liger [6k\]: right
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: b contemplates m4
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: but took it back
]
;B[lp]C[liger [6k\]: m4 seems strange to me...
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: still played it
veteran [1d\]: makes take away eye sente
arcades [3k\]: very solid
veteran [1d\]: now W got to either p4 or run
veteran [1d\]: p4 probably
]
;W[hn]C[veteran [1d\]: if he's a rabbit like me
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w disagrees ;)
Ruzinus [4k?\]: cajones
]
;B[km]
;W[rm]
;B[rr]
;W[hp]
;B[on]
;W[si]C[arcades [3k\]: not afraid
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: video feed is now on this board
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: http://eurogotv.com/index.php?menu=Live&channel=EuroGoTV1
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: darn, it's back already to 1
veteran [1d\]: B g11
]
;B[go]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: b g5 I'd say
veteran [1d\]: u right!
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: haha
Farouche [-\]: Easy to say for you, you see the board :d
Cassis0 [5d\]: that's barbarian cut lol
]
;W[dq]
;B[cr]
;W[ho]
;B[gm]C[Nemerid [-\]: but the ladder is good for white
Nemerid [-\]: sorry
liger [6k\]: sorry for what?  the ladder is good for white....
liger [6k\]: maybe the ladder breaker is good for black? :)
snowman [-\]: maybe not
]
;W[gn]
;B[fn]
;W[fl]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: no ladder played
]
;B[hm]C[veteran [1d\]: now direction for W
snowman [-\]: w didn't want to allow e7 atari
liger [6k\]: ah
]
;W[eq]C[yewy821: dun dun dun dun
]
;B[er]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w contemplates f4
chrpa [1d\]: F4 nice
snowman [-\]: counting the ko threats
Farouche [-\]: Looks less dangerous for W than for B
]
;W[fp]
;B[gp]
;W[gq]
;B[ep]
;W[fr]
;B[gr]
;W[fp]
;B[sg]C[veteran [1d\]: t9
veteran [1d\]: e5 big
terminatrx [2d\]: t9 or ignore 
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 0:47, b: 1:50
veteran [1d\]: W got ko ate?
liger [6k\]: if white decides he wants to value his right group more, then black probably has more ko threats
veteran [1d\]: o3 got
veteran [1d\]: true liger
Farouche [-\]: or he has an exceptionnal estimating ability an counts whether or not this is favourable
tabla1 [1d\]: b gets about 90 points if w takes the ko.... w will need all of the left side plus some 15-20 points in the centre to win..... hard choice
Cassis0 [5d\]: h2
bro [3d\]: h2 is bigger than the group on the left
bro [3d\]: I agree Cassis
bro [3d\]: *on the right , srry
liger [6k\]: so does white look up now? :)
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white is still thinking hard
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: black is away from the board
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: looking to bottom right atm
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: and now bottom left again
Pinguschaf [5d\]: hehe
Pinguschaf [5d\]: i think white takes
bro [3d\]: no surprise he is not looking on the top :)
Cassis0 [5d\]: problem is how will b manage m8
Pinguschaf [5d\]: m8 doesnt matter
Pinguschaf [5d\]: white needs p5 first
chrpa [1d\]: right
Pinguschaf [5d\]: so white would be cleanly dead
Cassis0 [5d\]: oh didnt see this move 
Pinguschaf [5d\]: still i dont see any threat for white if he answers this one
Pinguschaf [5d\]: o3 is not enough
Cassis0 [5d\]: j7 is one 
chrpa [1d\]: j7
terminatrx [2d\]: if white starts running at m8 ... before cutting, black should attack first ... like m8 k9  e.g.
Pinguschaf [5d\]: j7 is maybe not enough
liger [6k\]: if r8 lives, and f5  does as well, but so does h5 ....that would maybe be good for white?
Cassis0 [5d\]: b cut is non sense after
Cassis0 [5d\]: and b didnt gain a lot 
yewy821: time?
]
;W[sk]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 0:35, b: still 1:50
]
;B[fq]
;W[rq]
;B[qs]
;W[fp]
;B[sh]
;W[ri]
;B[fq]C[kiusasori [2d\]: b play very quickly !
liger [6k\]: t3 
yewy821: e5 good about now come on...
]
;W[op]C[kiusasori [2d\]: w have to won the ko
kiusasori [2d\]: maybe b more than w in fact
liger [6k\]: he "has to win"
kiusasori [2d\]: sorry for my bad english, i'm french :)
liger [6k\]: that's fine :)  I don't mean to be rude, I just thought you might want to know
]
;B[hq]
;W[nq]C[kiusasori [2d\]: thanks you ! :)
]
;B[cn]
;W[cm]
;B[bp]
;W[hk]C[wintogo [7d\]: w should have played j7 for ko threat
]
;B[im]
;W[gd]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white is playing more resolute now
liger [6k\]: but couldn't that hurt his moyo?
veteran [1d\]: wow
terminatrx [2d\]: j10 maybe 
wintogo [7d\]: black should go h9
veteran [1d\]: instead of b6, wow
wintogo [7d\]: before
wintogo [7d\]: yes
wintogo [7d\]: instead of it
]
;B[cb]C[veteran [1d\]: crossed wires, I mean last move leaves me in shock
veteran [1d\]: ah
terminatrx [2d\]: l10 ? maybe
veteran [1d\]: threat of g18, didn't see it
veteran [1d\]: was it really a threat?
liger [6k\]: maybe c18 was big sente for white?
Kaos [3k\]: g18 g17 c18 wasn't that good for b
]
;W[ob]
;B[pb]C[veteran [1d\]: isn't b6/ d5 big?
veteran [1d\]: will W l10 now?
veteran [1d\]: like terminatrix keeps saying
]
;W[id]C[veteran [1d\]: consistent with h9
Cassis0 [5d\]: how many is the first prize? 
Pylon [2k\]: 5k
]
;B[bb]C[Pylon [2k\]: (5000 €)
Cassis0 [5d\]: wow ok
Pylon [2k\]: thats why korean cash hunters came to visit the tournament xD
]
;W[kj]
;B[ik]C[Cassis0 [5d\]: nice to have such strong koreans :) 
Pylon [2k\]: yeah, pleasure to see them play ^^
yewy821: l6
]
;W[ij]
;B[bd]
;W[bf]
;B[bn]C[veteran [1d\]: b7 then n11
Tindel10 [12k\]: didnt this guy beat catalin?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: Kim did yes
Tindel10 [12k\]: Wow
Tindel10 [12k\]: is he winning now?
]
;W[do]
;B[gk]
;W[gl]
;B[hl]
;W[hj]
;B[em]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: he's sighing while playing this, that's for sure
Tindel10 [12k\]: oh wow
Tindel10 [12k\]: so a great win.....and now this...
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: it's a difficult game
Tindel10 [12k\]: I see
pel [2k?\]: wish we had video on this board instead
pel [2k?\]: much more interesting
Tindel10 [12k\]: haha that would be amazing
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: Tell eurogotv1 that :P
Pylon [2k\]: maybe these two players are best in tournament
kiddai [8k?\]: no lose so far, if im not mistaken
Pylon [2k\]: yeah
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: all 4 players on first two boards are unbeaten
Tindel10 [12k\]: what is the prize for 1st?
yewy821: time?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I haven't seen any official announcement regarding the prizes yet
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 13:25
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: b: 1:41
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w in mins, b in hours
Tindel10 [12k\]: So whoever wins this is the best in the world?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: so that's already almost 2:20 hours used by white
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: nonono tindel :P
Tindel10 [12k\]: oh ok :)
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: there's always pros that don't compete in this tournament
Tindel10 [12k\]: when is the biggest tounament that all the best players in the world go to?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: well, there's lots of tournaments, and not one world championship
Tindel10 [12k\]: Oh ok
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: e.g. there's the japanese honinbou
Tindel10 [12k\]: Sorry for all the Questions
Tindel10 [12k\]: I am just ever so curious
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: for a comprehensive list of pro tournaments, see http://senseis.xmp.net/?ProfessionalTournaments
Farouche [-\]: Look up the Fujistu Cup, the LG Cup, the ING Cup, the Samsung Cup and other majour international tourneys 
]
;W[el]
;B[dm]
;W[dl]
;B[en]
;W[ni]
;B[nh]
;W[mh]C[veteran [1d\]: B win now
Tindel10 [12k\]: 100%?
veteran [1d\]: moyo shrunk
Fabs [1k\]: 70% ? ;)
Tindel10 [12k\]: ;P
veteran [1d\]: c15 threaten e15
]
;B[cl]
;W[ck]
;B[bl]C[veteran [1d\]: c8 enormous
nolimits [2d\]: wasn't B9 better?
nolimits [2d\]: for b
veteran [1d\]: bottom right, top right
veteran [1d\]: at least W got sente
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white hovered around m9 (high above the board)
Tindel10 [12k\]: Whoa
]
;W[jb]
;B[dk]
;W[fk]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 7:19 mins, b: 1:37 hours
Tindel10 [12k\]: why such great disparity?
]
;B[cd]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white often thinks very hard and long
veteran [1d\]: maybe still close
]
;W[bk]C[Tindel10 [12k\]: oh ok
Fabs [1k\]: perhaps black used whites time for thinking either... :)
]
;B[ak]
;W[aj]
;B[al]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: SE guesses that it's close, but ofcourse that's not very accurate
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: if you don't count the area it doesn't count around e9
yewy821: whats se
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: score estimator
yewy821: ty
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: click on options -> score est.
Tindel10 [12k\]: What are the Byomi time periods?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: 1 mins, 1 period
MegaStrong [1k\]: if you haven't downloaded a kgs client you don't have SE
]
;W[ed]
;B[ib]
;W[gc]
;B[gb]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: contemplated k17
]
;W[jc]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: and played
]
;B[jk]
;W[jj]
;B[ce]
;W[cf]C[Tindel10 [12k\]: how hard would it be to make life in that H13 area?
Tindel10 [12k\]: \\just curious
Lovepove [6k\]: extremely
Tindel10 [12k\]: impossible?
MegaStrong [1k\]: how hard? impossilble
Tindel10 [12k\]: ok
BernD [7k?\]: n2 looks big now
]
;B[mr]
;W[nr]
;B[mq]
;W[kn]C[tabla1 [1d\]: b is some 10+ ahead on the board... what's komi?
Lovepove [6k\]: Remember, ING rules
pebarefoot [-\]: 7.5
veteran [1d\]: 7.5
ClemGo [4k\]: 8
tabla1 [1d\]: oh
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: 8 is komi
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: but in case of equal points, black wins
pebarefoot [-\]: options>rules
tabla1 [1d\]: who would want to play black with 8K???
Fabs [1k\]: but se already calculates with 7.5, right?
Athanor [-\]: i would
BernD [7k?\]: right
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: it does, fabs
]
;B[ln]
;W[lm]
;B[jn]
;W[kl]
;B[jm]
;W[np]C[Pylon [2k\]: white has bigger endgame
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I think it is pretty close
Fabs [1k\]: big enough for 6 points?
]
;B[ms]C[Lovepove [6k\]: Still ING rules! You can trust SE even less in this situation than you usually do
]
;W[dc]
;B[bc]
;W[ia]
;B[hb]
;W[pg]C[fractic [1k\]: difference between ING and japanese rules are at most one point unless there are sekis
Pylon [2k\]: now sente time for white ^^
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: correct, fractic
fractic [1k\]: i still have to find out how exactly ING handles seki though
yewy821: whats seki again?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: so counting score can be done 'the japanese way' mostly
fractic [1k\]: I'm going to play next week so i better learn :/
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Seki
]
;B[qg]
;W[lq]
;B[lr]
;W[oh]C[Hisigi [8k\]: if white can play O1 sente he will be able to take the Q2 stones ?
]
;B[oi]
;W[ng]C[Lovepove [6k\]: no
Lovepove [6k\]: black t3
kiusasori [2d\]: they are still playing ?
]
;B[pa]C[Hisigi [8k\]: yes 
Hisigi [8k\]: =)
kiusasori [2d\]: no break ?
]
;W[jl]
;B[il]
;W[kk]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w: 1:35 mins, b: 1:25 hours
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: no break
]
;B[mk]C[EuroGoTV2 [-\]: I haven't witnessed any breaks on board 2 yet :P
kiusasori [2d\]: no byoyomi ?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: 1 min byoyomi, 1 period
kiusasori [2d\]: ok thx
Pylon [2k\]: n9 feels too hasty
Pylon [2k\]: p19 first i guess
Fabs [1k\]: there might be something in L3 now?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: w entered byoyomi
meuns [2k\]: w ahead ?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: maybe slightly
Fabs [1k\]: w behind around 3-6 points 
meuns [2k\]: what is saying se ?
Kaos [3k\]: b+6.5
Laman [2k\]: SE W+6,5
Fabs [1k\]: ups
Kaos [3k\]: ups
Kaos [3k\]: french b is w
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: white resigned
MegaStrong [1k\]: eh?
A1R [8k\]: wh
A1R [8k\]: y
Pylon [2k\]: ^^
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: they are discussing the game in korean now
Lovepove [6k\]: So the official result is b+r?
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: indeed
Lovepove [6k\]: ok, thanks for playing the game for us :)
Pylon [2k\]: thanks
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: you're welcome ;)
Komachi [3k\]: Thank you EuroGo.
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: hopefully we'll have the feed fixed for board 2 today
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: see you tomorrow!
Fabs [1k\]: thx, good job!
Pylon [2k\]: yeah, enjoy lunch!
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: btw, they're discussing a white move at q1
Pylon [2k\]: oO
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: and some other things I can't understand :P
EuroGoTV2 [-\]: byebye
Pylon [2k\]: ^^
Pylon [2k\]: bye
anapazapa [2d\]: the order of ko threats probably
])